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DISCUSSION FORUMS : Forkliftaction.communicate
Forum: Industry News & Whispers
Discussion:  Toyota Leases? Should I be concerned
Number of messages: 42
Page: [1] 2 3
START MESSAGE:
OPTSGUY
Illinois, United States 		My company is currently reviewing quotations for our lift truck needs (7-10 units).  I am getting quotes on 5 and 6,000 lb L.P cushion tire trucks w/ full maintenance.  I am currently using another manufacturer, who I really trust and they've been great.  However, during these times we must get competitive quotes.  I am confused, the Toyota lease package including maint is about the same price as most others truck only rates.  Is this too good to be true? Or the deal of a life time?  I hate to part w/ my current vendor because they've been great, but this is a large savings over the term.

Posted 27 Jun 2009 10:22 AM Reply  Report this message
REPLIES: Sort replies by
edward_t
North Carolina, United States

 		short answer to your _real question of " Is this too good to be true? " is yes, it is too good to be true.

You get what you pay for... you just don't know where you are going to pay with the deal that looks "too good to be true". Do you always believe everything a salesperson tells you?
"get competitive quotes" would be "the trick". the obfuscation of where the charges really come in can be a very interesting tap dance, especially if you allow all other offers to see what is bid.
I think you have hit the nail on the head as far as one of the biggest complaints about some people in this industry. "fair and honest" dealings are far too rare, especially when one player has an idea of what you _think_ you are looking for in a deal. I would not be quick to blame one brand or another, but have noticed a ton of complaints about 'paying later' in deals locking in certain brands, and other brands making a huge effort to avoid those types of deals that even may have hurt that brand's sale numbers, but has overall lead to more happy long term customers. I have noted some brand's "mission statements" say they want to be the number 1 in number of units sold, while some other brand mission is to have the most content and return customers. while "mission statements" are often just multisyllabic "we are great and going to continue to be great" the fine print may actually be something the "powers that be" follow.
My expert opinion (after over 35 years in this industry) is that the single largest money saver anyone can have is a good relationship with the dealer and the techs that come into your operation and to convince them you are all on the same team. A tech could be able to steal far more with an ink pen than a crowbar, and it would take another even better trained tech to ever know.
The very best thing anyone can do to insure a fair deal is treating the tech like a friend, and not a cost. Offering a tech a cup of coffee when he gets to your facility will save far more than a years supply of coffee would ever cost. Ask the tech (who is your friend) just what is the truth about what any salesman tells you. The techs reputation is made on having the proper tools and telling truth, the salesman's reputation is made by convincing customers they need the type of hammer the salesman has.
A tech wants to give you the right answer, a salesperson wants to give you their answer. ymmv

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webhome = forktechs.com

Modified 27 Jun 2009 09:43 PM
by poster. 		Reply  Report this message
johnr_j
Georgia, United States 		OPTSGUY

When a $ is "significantly lower" than others, especially in the maintenance portion, get the details of the agreement and look for:

1.  Annual hours of usage (by hour meter).  Often a rate is based on fewer hours than you will actually use these machines.  Meaning you will pay dearly for over time use.
2.  How long is the rate really good for - 1 -2 years - it is not uncommon that there maybe be a clause that at the end of a 1 or 2 years (or some time less than the equipment lease period) the dealer has the right to increase the maintanence portion.
3.  Find out was is really covered and get a their definition of abuse - I had a customer get billed for a leaky power steering cylinder claiming it was abuse - by a competitive Toyota dealer.

This happens more than you think.  I took an account away from Toyota for the above reasons.  AS an example This customer, well known company, operated 7/24 365 and they allowed 1960 hours of annual usage - in actuality - the hours use were over 3000.  This was a 5 years lease in a nasty environment.  They (the customer) had to get out the big check book at the end of the lease.  Remember the "Devil You Know Is Generally Better Than the Devil You Don't Know".  Plus, getting a new supplier is like getting married - you never discover the real ISSUES until you start living together.

Remember Sales People only follow the direction of their management and policies of the owner.  Secondly, things like maintenance rates are set not by sales people but by the Service Department, who has to live with any contract.  If they don't follow directions and guidelines, like all of us they will be fired.


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Have An Exceptional Day!

Posted 27 Jun 2009 11:14 PM Reply  Report this message
OPTSGUY
Illinois, United States 		I have received several quotes.  Some are more some are less.  All quotes state 2,000 hours annually.  Toyota certainly has a good reputation for their L.P. Trucks and they are quick to tell you they are #1.  I have also been around a while and I am sure some of this has been accomplished by some of their acquisitions.  

I am planning to ask for a copy of their lease documents.  My concern is what is their expectation of condition after the lease?  Is there anything else I should be looking/asking for?

Posted 28 Jun 2009 03:34 AM Reply  Report this message
DAVE160
yorkshire, United Kingdom 		this might just be Toyota trying to get business. Be sure there are no hiden charges.It just might be that they can stand a loss hoping in five years you will stick with them and that whats important to them.Some times when dealers are tied to a manufacture they have to take a number of trucks to get their discount, so they might just be of loading some stock on to hire.This is not bad as you can save just be sure on chargables

Posted 28 Jun 2009 05:00 AM Reply  Report this message
OPTSGUY
Illinois, United States 		I understand due to the economy companies are doing some very aggressive things.  My current vendor warns me that I should be worried about the back end of my lease.  He claims it is not uncommon for some dealers to have a large service/up to par quote at the end of the term.  That of course if I buy/lease from them the bill will go away, Extorsion?
Again, I have had great service and trust my current vendor but If I don't look  at everyone how do I know whether I have the best truck/service?

Posted 28 Jun 2009 05:22 AM Reply  Report this message
johnr_j
Georgia, United States 		OPTSGUY,
Often the 200 hours annual in a quoted is what the  residual valvue is based on in a Fair Market Value lease.

The maintenance portion can and commonly has a different a different annual hour usage that when it is exceed you pay overtime rates.  Look clsoe at this and is the overtime  base period every month , every quarter, semi annually, etc.  Just some "belt & suspenders" check points.

The bill going away thing maybe a bit of the "shell game".  Most companies are not in business to be an ONPO  (Obviously Not for Profit Organization) - except the Fedral, State adn Local Governments - when they run out of  $$ they just increase or invent new taxes.

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Have An Exceptional Day!

Posted 28 Jun 2009 10:44 PM Reply  Report this message
Youngster
Bucks, United Kingdom 		Guy's over the pond!
Do you really think that a global company like Toyota would 'rip people off' (I doubt it very much)  I thought that the US had the best sales guys in the world, surely they wouldn't lie to you either.
I suggest you read the contract carefully and only sign if you are comfortable with the content.  If you need clarification on any point(s) get the sales guy to give you something in writting signed by a senior member of staff.

Posted 29 Jun 2009 06:00 AM Reply  Report this message
johnr_j
Georgia, United States 		Youngster,

1.)  You are right one needs to read over the contract closely.  Typically in a Fair Market Value Lease w/full maintenance.  There are two contracts to be concerned about.  One for teh equipment lease 9between the leasing company adn the lessor) and the maintenance portion is an agreement between the customer and teh dealer.
2.)  Typically when a quotation is provided to a customer only the highlights of the  lease agreement are stated - ike monthly paym,ent, type of lease and if a FMV annual operating ours the monthly rate is based on.  With the maintenance portion only the  monthly rate is shown and little details are provided.
3.)  While Toyota is a global company the vast majority of authorized dealers are independent businsses.
4.) It seems the OPTSGUY asked what to look out for and he was provided information.
5.)  Sales people no matter where they are from have at least a little bit of this tendecy in them - "lie at little, cheat a little but always be sincere about it"
6.)  Or as the fleet manager for a very large plywood company told me once "If a sales person says it to him - he believes 0%  of what was said and if he puts it in writing  he would only believe 50% of it."  His name was J.D. Mills.

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Have An Exceptional Day!

Posted 29 Jun 2009 11:35 AM Reply  Report this message
Forkdog
New Jersey, United States 		What hour meter are they using?  If it is an electric you need to know, is it traction time? Seat time?  or more likely Key time?  If it is key time which is the case in a lot of leases look out for overtime.  If your current provider uses traction and Toyota uses key time you will hit overtime on the lease and maintenance much quicker in the lease.  That can be $3.00/hr or more additional on the truck.

Posted 2 Jul 2009 04:29 AM Reply  Report this message
shawna_p
California, United States 		Hello OPTSGUY,

You should really consider looking into a Toyota Lift Truck. With current times, it's always great to receive multiple quotes.Toyota has some really great deals right now!



Toyota has huge customer service ranking and highest in quality and value for the 5th year in a row!

OPTSGUY, visit the toyotaforklift.com website or feel free to give me a call at 800-226-009.

My name is Shawna & I work in the Marketing department at Toyota Material Handling, U.S.A., Inc.

Good luck to you in finding a lift truck! We are here to help.




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Shawna Piposar

Modified 2 Jul 2009 07:07 AM
by poster. 		Reply  Report this message
edward_t
North Carolina, United States

 		hey,,, Shawna_p....
I hope you find the rest of your phone number before you have too many things printed...
if they can't get a simple thing like the phone number right,,,,  
Good luck to you in finding a ringing phone in the USA with that number.

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webhome = forktechs.com

Modified 2 Jul 2009 07:40 AM
by poster. 		Reply  Report this message
shawna_p
California, United States 		Sorry about that. I apologize, that is my error. I have fast typing fingers today! We make sure we get it right here.

1-800-226-0009.

My personal line is 949-223-7769. You can feel free to speak to me.

Shawna Piposar
Toyota Material Handling, U.S.A., Inc.


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Shawna Piposar

Modified 2 Jul 2009 08:11 AM
by poster. 		Reply  Report this message
edward_t
North Carolina, United States

 		Thanks, I bet you will get more calls with that number ;-)

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webhome = forktechs.com

Posted 2 Jul 2009 09:40 AM Reply  Report this message
OPTSGUY
Illinois, United States 		Shawna, If I wasn't clear I already have quotes from Toyota.  My major question is how can the Toyota lease package which includes full maintenance (based on 2,000 hours) be less than their competitors truck only price?  My concern is "Fair Market Value" lease.  Since it appears you work for Toyota Corp.  can you tell me who determines the FMV at the end of the lease?  More importantly short of my operators doing any type of serious abuse to the trucks, do I have any exposure at the end of the lease or does Toyota gurantee the value at the end of the lease? I have asked for a copy of the lease contract (even a blank one) from my salesperson before we make our decision, hope to see it soon.

Posted 2 Jul 2009 02:14 PM Reply  Report this message
OPTSGUY
Illinois, United States 		I would also like to thank everyone for their input.  I am hoping to find others opinions then just the sales people I am dealing with.  I understand they are trying to do their job but I am doing my best to determine the facts -vs- the mud slinging.

Posted 2 Jul 2009 02:17 PM Reply  Report this message
johnr_j
Georgia, United States 		OPTSGUY,

The FMV lease residual value is set at the start of the lease proposal based on lease term, anticipated usage (annual operating based on hourmeter reading), operating enviroment, equipment type & specifications.

If the hours are exceeded at the end of the lease term you are on the hook for any impact on the FMV.  Generally, if the leasing company gets 100% of tehrsidual vlaue at lease expiration you should have no worries.  The FMV at the end of the lease is generally determined by 3 indepentent offers from various dealers and you will also be given an opportunity to purchase teh unit - generally the offer will come thru the dealer you bought it from.  If the accumulated hours on the machine are significantly lower than anticipated, you should be given the option to continue the lease for an additional time period - generally at a reduce rate. (depending on the cost of financing at that time).  Most of these options you should be made aware of by your dealer at least 90 days before the lease expiration date - many will open discussions 6 months before expiration.  The more time you have - the more intelligent decision you can make vs a  time pressured situation.

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Have An Exceptional Day!

Posted 2 Jul 2009 10:52 PM Reply  Report this message
wes_o
Illinois, United States 		OPTSGUY-

Not sure if you have looked at the TCM forklifts yet but I am confident that we could propose a solution that would be as cost competitive as Toyota and not have you locked into the customer damages charges at the end of the lease.  

If you are interested in discussing a TCM solution you can contact me at 773-376-7900

Please ask for Weston Olczyk
Posted 3 Jul 2009 01:01 AM Reply  Report this message
shawna_p
California, United States 		Good Morning OPTSGUY-
Dealerships determine the final pricing.  TMHU manufactures the lift truck, which intern is sold to the dealership. We give the dealerships various pricing and promotional incentives throughout the year to offer to customers.

Financing or leasing questions can be directed to the dealership or Toyota Financial Services. Your leasing would go through Toyota Financial Service.




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Shawna Piposar

Posted 3 Jul 2009 01:57 AM Reply  Report this message
OPTSGUY
Illinois, United States 		JohnJ. My current supplier has told me that the numbers don't make sense and warns me that I may be trapped at the end of the lease with Toyota.  He claims this is not uncommon.  I understand the hours and abuse effecting the end of lease terms.  However, my current vendor has warned me that they might have inflated residuals and my concern is if 3 seperate companies deems the residuals to be lower am I on the hook for the difference?  As I mentioned I realize Toyota is a good company but if the sale prices are virtually the same why would the Toyota lease be so much lower than all other bids?  I need to make a decision by mid July, so if anyone can answer this question I would appreciate it.

Posted 7 Jul 2009 10:44 AM Reply  Report this message
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