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DISCUSSION FORUMS : Forkliftaction.communicate
Forum: Safety, training & legislation
Discussion:  Death of an 18yr old
Number of messages: 16
START MESSAGE:
paddyB
Queensland, Australia

 		Hi,
I’m Sorry to report the death of an 18yr old here in Brisbane, who allegedly used a forklift without a licence or training. (hearsay)
I must say that investigations are ongoing so I won’t speculate any further about the causes etc.
What I must say is that the investigators are there trying to find out the reasons behind such a tragic accident.
My question is this, how many times have investigators/ inspectors been to your factory, warehouse without invitation just to check up on unlicensed untrained drivers etc.

I think if there were more unexpected visits by inspectors they may cut down on the incident rate.
Posted 8 Oct 2009 02:50 PM Reply  Report this message
REPLIES: Sort replies by
dan_m
Ontario, Canada 		i am not even going to begin to start naming all the deficiencies with the government inspectors.  The behind the scenes garbage is so tantalizing it wold make your hair stand on ends.

Inspectors get paid to work x amount of hours a week to earn their pay.  What they do is another story.

Tragic, isn't it.  An 18 yr old dies because of lack of training.  If it were up to me, license forklifts as they license automobiles.  Have these trucks registered so everyone knows exactly where they are located.

Prevention could have possibly prevented this incident, and not 1/2 dozen inspectors running out to the scene after it took place.

You won't change it and neither will I.  Too many inept trainers.  Too many inept trainers just doing it for the buck.  No government control over trainers.  Nothing.  So what do you expect comes to pass?

Your thread!

Modified 9 Oct 2009 06:51 AM
by poster. 		Reply  Report this message
MaxaM60
Bristol, United Kingdom

 		Its about time that the people involved in Health and Safety realised that their roll is not to enforce rules whilst walking round in a nice suit carrying a clipboard. Health and Safety is a vocation not a job.  The young person mentioned was 18 years old, someone could have and should have taken their vocation seriously enough to ensure this person would not die because of a work place accident.  In my humble opinion anyone involved in Health and Safety purely as a job should find some other way of making an easy living.

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Instructor, RTITB Tutor, ITSSAR Cat' 4 Tutor

Posted 13 Oct 2009 07:41 PM Reply  Report this message
TC17
Wisconsin, United States

 		It truly is a sad day when you here about the death of an employee, whether they are experienced with many years of service or as in this case a young individual just starting out. But this is not the fault of inspectors. If this young driver was indeed not trained then the burden falls back on the company that he works for, because it is their responsibility to make sure that their employees are fully trained to operate the equipment they will be using.
As for licensing lift trucks and knowing where they are, we number everyone of our trucks and we keep track of there locations at all times, and even in doing this, there is no way this accident would have been prevented just because they knew where the lift trucks were. This accident was caused (if the young driver was indeed not trained) due to lack of training and the lack of supervisors making sure all the lift truck operators were trained, basically by doing a simple part of their jobs, maybe this is where the investigation should start, find out who was not doing their job!!!!! Supervisors and upper management get paid to do their job also and making sure their employees are properly trainined to accomplish their assigned tasks is just a small part of it, and in this case the ball sounds like it was dropped.
I am not a government investigator, but a company trainer and I believe this was (and might still be) a company problem that needs to be fixed immediately!!!!! These types of accidents are preventable, someone just was not doing their job.

-------------------------
Wisconsin, USA "Be safe"

Posted 15 Oct 2009 10:55 PM Reply  Report this message
dan_m
Ontario, Canada 		The government has as much knowledge of the whereabouts of forklifts, as I do.  If they knew where they are all situated, and had the government inspectors visit these businesses, and follow-up whether training has been done or not, maybe, just maybe this death wouldn't of occurred.

Yes, the company must have their staff trained but you know as well as I, that they procrastinate, put it on the backburner or forget about it.  Why, because there is no fear driven into the companies to make this a priority.  There are fears of getting into an automobile accident, and fears of not renewing our license plates, but there is no fear of not getting, or delaying, forklift safety training!

Posted 15 Oct 2009 11:55 PM Reply  Report this message
TC17
Wisconsin, United States

 		Good morning Dan,
I do agree that there should be more facility inspections to check for proper training, but usually the only time we see these inspectors are when there is an accident of this type or if a disgruntled employee files a complaint (safety) to OSHA.
When I was in the military we knew we had inspections from higher headquarters very 12 - 18 months and it was not good for any one to fail these and they looked for everything from basic training techniques to whether an individual and unit actually knew what they were doing.
We are very fortunate that we have a CEO that is very safety conscious and we have programs in place that sends out reports once a month that shows what employee training that has been conducted and what employee training re-evaluations are due with in the next six months.
As a trainer I would love to see a 0 accident/incident rate, but as with children, you can raise them the best you can, give them the right direction, but ultimately it is in their hands to take that life time of learning and properly use it. As the old adage is. "You can lead a horse to water, but you can not make them drink".
Again it is a sad day when a death occurs within our environment, or anywhere, especially one that could have been prevented.

-------------------------
Wisconsin, USA "Be safe"

Posted 16 Oct 2009 10:50 PM Reply  Report this message
dan_m
Ontario, Canada 		The issue is twofold...

1 lack of government intervention, although they are the ones who write and enforce the laws
2.  Lack of sense of urgency on behalf of the companies to do the training, and especially, enforce the training

Combine the two, and you get incidents and deaths.

Posted 17 Oct 2009 10:12 AM Reply  Report this message
rick_c
Texas, United States

 		the loss of a life at any age is horribly tragic and i cant imagine the pain the family is suffering.
that being said i think asking for more government intrusion or regulation is a mistake (a big one). governments cant do anything well and rules and laws are already exist to cover this subject. be damn careful what you ask for. i dont need a nanny and those who do should rent their own.

Posted 1 Nov 2009 06:31 AM Reply  Report this message
dan_m
Ontario, Canada 		I agree that governments don't do anything well except collect every last cent we have, and spend it foolishly.

On another note, they do some enforcement in other areas that they do not enforce in our field.

They have roadblocks set up for seat belt use.
They have roadblocks set up for alcohol use.
They park off to the side in forests and other hiding spots with radar to track down speedsters
They will pull you over if they notice your license tag is not current
And everything else I can't think of at this time.

So what do the labour departments do in order to crack down on illegal activities in the workplace?

You may not need a nanny, but there does not seem as sense of urgency for business to follow the laws put forth.  There are laws, but what is being done to enforce them?

Posted 1 Nov 2009 01:02 PM Reply  Report this message
rick_c
Texas, United States

 		we need to prosecute vigorously to the full extent of EXISTING laws. no amount of inspections are as scary to an employer as jail time or losing a civil case. governments do nothing effectively other than vacuum money out of the pockets of those who work hardest. should we make tickets cost $1000.00 or put a cop every 20 feet just because 1 guy got away. or remove all firearms from all citizens when one accident occurs? we have enough government and every time we let them have access to a little more of our life they find a way to bill us for it.

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technology: (no user serviceable parts inside)

Posted 2 Nov 2009 03:52 AM Reply  Report this message
dan_m
Ontario, Canada 		Noted.

What do we do with those companies who procrastinate the safety training laws put forth by our governments? Or refresher training?  Both laws yet I can name you lots who either do not have their staff trained, refresher trained, or delay the training altogether.  They are breaking the labour laws, and with no one enforcing them, then whats the hurry to get it done?

Drive without the latest sticker on your license plate, the cops will nail you down from a mile away!  Don't renew your drivers license, they'll come a hollering at you with ticket book at hand.

Humans, western society, will take advantage of the non actions of government not enforcing the laws.  And if they can get away with it, they will.  Most people are literally scared not to renew their licenses, therefore, they'll do it, and the bureaus are jammed pack every woken moment.  People are literally scared to drive with invalid plates and drivers licenses, and that is why they renew.

I have yet to come across a business that is literally scared when it comes to planning out training, or refresher training.

And every excuse why not to do it is presented.  This one can't make it, or inventory these weeks, or busy time for us, or so and so is on holidays.  You name it, they will find the excuse.  When it comes to drivers licenses and plates, I'd love to hear them say things like..I've got a wedding to go to, I will be on holidays, I am too busy, My dog is sick.  

No sir, they find the time to get er dun.  Unlike training, because there is no strict enforcement.

If that was the case, my phone would be ringing a hundred times a day!

Posted 2 Nov 2009 05:56 AM Reply  Report this message
rick_c
Texas, United States

 		i shouldn't have opened my mouth on this subject, my political views are thick and fixed but it seems to me that enforcing existing laws and exercising some personal responsibility are the logical answers to this problem. if you "violate" enforce the law and if you dont know how to drive it stay the hell off. personal responsibility is when you dont ask the government to be your mother. socialism doesn't need much of an invitation and once its in it takes a lot of dead 18 year olds to get rid of

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technology: (no user serviceable parts inside)

Posted 2 Nov 2009 01:04 PM Reply  Report this message
rick_c
Texas, United States

 		i want to say i am sorry for my venemous reply to the horrible accident that killed that young man. i am a little ashamed of letting my political views cloud my view of this unimagineable tragedy. i cant even consider the suffering of a parent loosing a child.

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technology: (no user serviceable parts inside)

Posted 17 Nov 2009 01:25 PM Reply  Report this message
bigGlittlestar
United States 		All said and done, it boils down to the employer and their management. They are the only one directly on hand, instructing and supervising the operators. Yes, loss of life is sad and I truly feel for the family, but any finger pointing should be aimed at his direct supervisor and employer.

As a member of management when an accident occured no matter how major or minor, I always looked for what I could do better. For a very selfish reason, I never wanted to be the person that has to call a wife and give them the news.

Posted 17 Nov 2009 02:46 PM Reply  Report this message
MaxaM60
Bristol, United Kingdom

 		Its very interesting reading these posts. The remarks from Dan is exactly what we get here in England. The enforcement in the UK is no better than you guys get in the U.S & Canada.
What worries me is when the Instructors stop caring.  I could name several Instructors in my area who's heads have dropped and now go out training solely for the days pay.  I train new and existing instructors and am amazed at the poor standard of instruction here mainly because the instructors dont care any more.  Do you guys find that if you stand firm against a poor system you find yourself standing alone ?  The employers can easily find someone else taking half the time for half the cost.  Do the awarding bodies in the UK care ? NO... Does the HSE in the UK care? NO .... So I guess its upto us, the few who do still care

-------------------------
Instructor, RTITB Tutor, ITSSAR Cat' 4 Tutor

Posted 17 Nov 2009 07:44 PM Reply  Report this message
dan_m
Ontario, Canada 		Better believe it Max.  The cheapest, the shortest amount of time, the less taxing (difficulty) to their staff, the more they will hire you.  Goes against the grain for me although my rates are actually very competitive.

I had written an article in the Safety 1st column some time ago "How Much is that Doggy in the Window" re the prime interest by employers regarding safety, and a second article, how long.

How much and how long seems to be the 2 points that determine which company uses whom for training.

I wonder whether they purchase their automobiles, stereos, computers and clothes that way...how much (the cheapest naturally) and how long (the shortest duration naturally)?

Posted 17 Nov 2009 09:18 PM Reply  Report this message


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