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DISCUSSION FORUMS : Forkliftaction.communicate
Forum: Safety, training & legislation
Discussion:  looking for legal opinions or knowledge re; US or EU citizen assist Iranians or...
Number of messages: 13

START MESSAGE:
edward_t
South Carolina, United States

I know this isn't about safety, but it is about the laws that govern our actions and how we should we train ourselves to stay on the 'correct' side of the law enforcement people.
I hope it can remain factual and not get too political (says the guy voted most likely to get away from the subject while getting too political).  
I remember a few years back, A VP for parts for Clark went to US Federal prison for trying to work around the US laws that prevent people from doing business in states that the USA has said are supporters of terrorism (mainly Iran and North Korea, these days, as far as I know) or are listed as countries that if we do business we would be "trading with the enemy".
NOW to the real question.
With that as the background; What if someone in the USA,  EU, or Austrialia for that matter, were to give technical assistance to someone in North Korea or Iran, over an open forum like this one? Would that be considered against the law?
Where would the line be drawn as to how much or how little help is allowed? Would a manufacturer be required to [geo-block] block all IP address blocks numbers from those countries to it's otherwise open web site that provides information (like some companies provide schematics and manuals on-line)?    
What if the advice was given to someone that had listed their location as Paris, France, but was really in Tehran, Iran?


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"it's not rocket surgery"
webhome=forktechs.com


Posted 31 Dec 2011 00:01 AM Reply  Report this message
REPLIES: Sort replies by
scot_s
Michigan, United States
Ed,  You know who I am and work for.  That being said I would not even think about putting it to the test.  Selling parts to providing technical information when working for a company that does not do and type of business with banned countries would be greatly frowned upon.

Posted 5 Jan 2012 12:58 AM Reply  Report this message
ric_n
Kentucky, United States
Not sure why anyone would want to help them out in the first place. If it is not against the law, it should be.

Posted 5 Jan 2012 11:10 PM Reply  Report this message
edward_t
South Carolina, United States

Well, here I go, getting political, even after I hoped I would not, but maybe if I go ahead and say these things, the discussion can move to other types of opinions.
I have always heard that the only way to be sure that someone is no longer an adversary is to make them your friend, and get them to understand that being your friend is better for -them- than not being your friend.
I can think of a few reasons to want to help out someone that is not in your own back yard, not the least of which may $.  
Also,  unless we engage with other people, we will never give anyone a chance to prove that they may not be our enemy and us not their enemy, nor will we ever begin to understand their culture, nor will they have any opportunity to learn and appreciate our culture.  
I somehow doubt that being born a Persian, a Cuban or North Korean automagically makes you evil, any more than being born in Iceland.
Of course the same reasons (whatever they may be) that the rest of us here try to help each other would be a valid reason to be willing to help someone .


-------------------------
"it's not rocket surgery"
webhome=forktechs.com


Modified 6 Jan 2012 10:16 PM
by poster.
Reply  Report this message
Budman
Alabama, United States

Edward, I feel that the sanctions against the Governments that you have mentioned are to give them a reality check. In doing this, the people of that country also need to understand that their Governments complicity with terrorism or threats against other civilized countries will not be tollerated. Now as to what you are asking about helping on a forum. Legalling if you are not trading, selling or benefiting from the corespondence I don't think that you are truely breaking the law. You would need to verify with your legal department on that. But just because you helped someone in Iran fix their fork lift, it's not going to change that countries perception of us in the big picture. I choose who I want to help and who I don't. That's my decision and being x-military, I choose not to help countries that our Government decides is involved in terrorist activity.

Posted 10 Jan 2012 02:47 AM Reply  Report this message
TheBirdman
Oklahoma, United States

I have heard of a factory parts type person going to jail for allowing parts to be sent to a country we would not want to assist.

Posted 10 Jan 2012 02:52 AM Reply  Report this message
alan_m
United Kingdom

Hi lads, I'm not sure being from the UK that my perception of other countries would differ from the above posters. If somebody asked for my advice I would assist in any way I could irrespective of where they are in the world.
If I could help with information or parts supply I would certainly not hesitate in helping out. They might live in a country that has links to terrorism but does not mean that they are terrorists.

Posted 10 Jan 2012 05:20 PM Reply  Report this message
edward_t
South Carolina, United States

I don't have any "legal department" to check with, it's just me as a person, and I am not so sure that there has to be a financial gain before dealing with restricted entities becomes against the law.
I would agree with Alan_M that my "first instinct" is to help anyone I could, but I am pretty sure that Britain as well as the USA has laws against what is called "trading with the enemy", and as I read the USA law, (but I sure ain't no lawyer) it seems like it is the responsibility of who ever is giving the advice, data or selling/shipping the parts/goods, to insure that the 'final end user' is not someone living in a country that our own countries have decided that pressuring the populace by an embargo rather than some other action (?military or espionage?).
So here is just about what I am wondering: Since Alan_m has expressed that he would be willing to provide assistance " irrespective of where they are in the world", under the US law, could I be held responsible by the US Government, if I gave data to Alan_m, with me knowing he was willing and quite possibly able to provide that same information to someone in one of the countries on the 'list'?
In other words, just how much "due diligence" is required?
I think it was A VP (of parts) from ClarkMH USA that went to prison for trying to ship forklift parts to Iran through a third country or 2.

-------------------------
"it's not rocket surgery"
webhome=forktechs.com


Modified 10 Jan 2012 09:21 PM
by poster.
Reply  Report this message
Karait
Poland

I'm writing from Poland.

Iran and North Korea are for me  two totally different issues.
There is no chance and wish to support the communist regime in Korea, although I can't see in Polish  law any legal restrictions to communicate on internet forums and "exchange the experiences". But nobody does it and nobody wants to do it, when we know, that there's no free access to internet in N. Korea and any contact from there is surely "non private"

Iran is a different matter.
I know two or three Iranians from my activity with Linde (yes - Linde was and probably is doing the bussiness with Iran).

Generally Iranians I know are very nice and friendly people and they are really pissed off because of their regime. They do the bussiness like us, they employ the people and are pretty reliable partners. And they want to be treated as normal guys, not regime agents.

I rememeber in eightees, when we had the martial law in Poland, there were some serious economical restrictions from western countries against the communist governemt, and paralelly the huge private or organizational aid from western citizens for Polish people. We remember that.

I think the actual Iran situation is somehow similar.

We here have no law forbidding  to communicate private people with private people in Iran, specially when our area of activity is technical but definitely civilian.

Posted 25 Jan 2012 03:12 AM Reply  Report this message
chublil
California, United States

Weapons plants and nuclear sites have forklifts, no thanks. I hope it winds up as a scrap truck they keep pulling parts off!!!!!!!!

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Fix it right!!!

Posted 26 Jan 2012 10:43 PM Reply  Report this message
andrew_j
Florida, United States
I always get the feeling that there is another agenda when people ask these questions.I'd really like to help those nice Iranians who are being held hostage by their government.
Yeah and if you believe that I have some bridges to sell you.
All conversations in and out of Iran are closely monitored by any means. Who do you think might be on the other end. Let's say you supply something illegal they got you! Oh I'm from the UK or Poland well welcome to the long reach of the US government. There is a 65 year old British Citizen in the Houston Jail who thought he could do the same thing. He'll probably spend the rest of his life in a US jail.So we may all have our own ideas on whurled peas but the US Government has the last say.Do you ever think those parts might be to repair a forklift lifting a part to make a nuclear weapon?
Finally my personal  opinion before 9/11 you could claim you were making overtures and helping to try and bring peace. After you choose sides and if it's the wrong one don't be surprised to die of lead poisoning.

Posted 23 Mar 2012 04:20 PM Reply  Report this message
bbforks
Pennsylvania, United States
I think we all take the chance of being prosecuted on open forums- no matter which one we're on. You never know how what you say is going to be interpreted. You may mean one thing, but someone else has an adjenda & interprets it another way. We really don't know ( at least I don't)  who we're in conversation with or where they're from.

As far as believing in sanctions against other countries, I have to honor the wishes of my government, whether I like it or not. Just because I don't like the speed limit doesn't give me the right to speed. I may feel sorry for the citizens of a particular country, but that doesn't give me the right to break the law in order to help them, That's why I pay taxes & vote. I have to rely on my elected officials to do the "right" thing, no matter how idealistic that may be.

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bbforks (at) Hotmail (dot) com
Customers love technology- until they have to pay to fix it!


Posted 24 Mar 2012 01:12 AM Reply  Report this message
Budman
Alabama, United States

Everyone needs to remember that the sanctions against rogue countries such as Iran & North Korea apply to all companies and people within these countries. That is how economical preasure is put on.....from within also. The Arab Spring was brought about from within the Arab countries due to the treatment of the people and by the people. They are only one of the factors that bring about change. Does it hurt the average person.....YES. Is it our call as an individual....NO. But I still have to obey the laws of my country. Which I served for in the Military and am very proud to be American by birth & Southern by the grace of God!

Modified 24 Mar 2012 01:24 AM
by poster.
Reply  Report this message

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