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DISCUSSION FORUMS : Forkliftaction.communicate
Forum: Safety, training & legislation
Discussion:  LP TANK FILLING
Number of messages: 38
Page: [1] 2
START MESSAGE:
roadrat
North Carolina, United States

Recently was at a customers site and on the way around to back side of facillity, I noticed a forklift driver filling LP tank that was sill latched and  hose still coupled to valve----while running--I asked him if this was normal and he said he was giving it a quick shot of gas and did it occaisionally to finish his shift. I asked him if he was aware that LP gas was heavier than air and collected on the ground and also the forklift  was like a vacuum cleaner pulling air from the bottom around the engine and blew through the radiator, if a spark was to occur what would happen? --he thanked me and stopped filling in this manner.  DO any of the Forum folks see this in your world?---  Care to share your story.....

Modified 10 Mar 2008 07:03 AM
by poster.
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REPLIES: Sort replies by
dan_m
Ontario, Canada
Roadrat,

We see everything!

Posted 9 Mar 2008 10:29 AM Reply  Report this message
MikeD
Massachusetts, United States
  Not since I was alive!!!!

                    :-)

Posted 14 Mar 2008 00:23 AM Reply  Report this message
thomas_c
California, United States

LPG and Proper Safety Procedures

Working in my family forklift dealership for 20 years, and being an OSHA forklift safety trainer, I've had some experience with it.

(One of our best mechanics and also a personal friend of mine had three or four large, deep scars on his face that had been caused by an LPG tank exploding on him.)

Here's what the OSHA powered industrial safety code sections say regarding filling LPG tanks:

(It's a pretty clear-cut matter.)

OSHA Regulations (Standards - 29 CFR)
Powered industrial trucks. - 1910.178

· Standard Number: 1910.178
· Standard Title: Powered Industrial Trucks.
· SubPart Number: N
· SubPart Title: Materials Handling and Storage
· Applicable Standard: Applicable Standard:

(a) - General Requirements
(b) - Designations
(c) - Designated Locations
(d) - Converted Trucks
(e) - Safety Guards
(f) - Fuel Handling & Storage
(g) - Changing & Charging Storage Batteries
(h) - Lighting Operations
(i) - Noxious Gases & Fumes
(k) - Trucks & Railroad Cars
(l) - Operator Training
(m) - Truck Operations
(n) - Traveling
(o) - Loading
(p) - Operation of the Truck

..1910.178(o)(6) (p)(2)

"Fuel tanks shall not be filled while the engine is running. Spillage shall be avoided."

============================================

Here's what the MSDS sheet on LPG from Campora Corporation says about LPG:

"Chemical Name: LIQUEFIED PETROLEUM GAS or PROPANE

CAS Registry No.: 74-98-6 Chemical Family: Hydrocarbon

WARNING: Danger! Extremely flammable.

Compressed Gas Asphyxiant in high concentrations.

Contact with liquid causes burns similar to frost bite.

OSHA permissible exposure limit (PEL) 1000 ppm for an 8-hour workday.

Appearance and Odor: Vapor and liquid are colorless.

Product contains an odorant (unpleasant odor)."

============================================

Here's some of the facts on LPG:

Propane can be liquefied at ordinary temperatures with moderate pressures.
Propane is approximately -44 degrees Fahrenheit in the liquid state.
Propane burns cleanly, has a high heat value and has a high octane number.
Propane liquid is colorless and odorless in its natural state.
Propane liquid is extremely volatile and will vaporize quickly if spilled.
Propane liquid is extremely volatile and will vaporize quickly if spilled.
Propane liquid leaking into the atmosphere can often be detected by a white fog caused by freezing of moisture in the air.
Propane vapor is heavier than air and can accumulate in low spots.
Propane vapor will diffuse very slowly into the atmosphere unless assisted by strong wind current.
Propane vapor leaking into the atmosphere cannot always be detected by the eye.
There is approximately 37 cubic feet of vapor in one gallon of liquid.

============================================

Here's the proper fueling procedures for forklifts:

Preliminary Filling Procedures
1. Stop vehicle engine. Set emergency brake.
2. Extinguish all open flames in vehicle. Check to insure all burners and pilots are extinguished.
3. Extinguish all smoking materials.
4. Require all passengers to leave vehicle during filling.
5. Determine that tank is not already full by observing discharge from outage valve or weight of container and contents.
6. Carefully inspect tank to insure it is in good condition and approved for LP-gas service. Do not fill tank if defects are found.
7. Fill only tanks with DOT, ICC or ASME nameplates or markings.
8. Fill only tanks which have required protective ring or protective housing to prevent physical damage to valves.
9. Insure that tanks are equipped with a safety relief valve communicating with vapor space. Safety relief valve discharge vent must be covered to prevent entrance of water or dirt.
10. Inspect all tank valves for leakage at time of filling. A leaking container cannot be filled.

============================================

I have to cut the message off<

-------------------------
Invest in people first.

Posted 14 Mar 2008 05:23 PM Reply  Report this message
thomas_c
California, United States

OK, my message is too long, so there's no second part! But thanks for the opportunity to reply to this vital safety issue. Tom

-------------------------
Invest in people first.

Posted 14 Mar 2008 05:32 PM Reply  Report this message
randal_s
Nova Scotia, Canada
Unless the tank is mounted verticaly how does the spit valve function properly to prevent overfilling? Tell the operator not to be so %^&* lazy and keep his co-workers alive since he does not want to live to a ripe old age himself.

Posted 6 Apr 2008 10:49 PM Reply  Report this message
dan_m
Ontario, Canada
The spit/spray valve is to determine when the cylinder is filled to the 80% level.  I would not have the cylinder filled while mounted on the forklift.  Therefore, the cylinder can rest in its vertical position, on the ground, where it should be during the refilling stage.

Posted 7 Apr 2008 01:10 AM Reply  Report this message
roadrat
North Carolina, United States

I was amazed at how responsive the operator was when I gave him a 1 minute session on the characteristics of LP-gas vapors and the dangeruos scenario he was setting himself up for.

He stated that what I had told him was never explained and He actually Thanked me and would never fill in this manner again.

The Saftey Man has since got involved and changed their forklift Training to include filling proceedures.

From my understanding that in the past there was  an "assigned" person to fill tanks.

Modified 7 Apr 2008 03:57 AM
by poster.
Reply  Report this message
roadrat
North Carolina, United States

To dan m,  I can imagine what you are thinking,  How could this be over looked.  It is "scarey" to me some things that operators do, but it goes back to Proper Training by Qualified Trainers.

"In House" Saftey people may be good on other issues but some lack the expertese and qualifications that a "dedicated" forklift Saftey Trainer will have.

I AM MODIFYING THIS POST:     IT WAS SUPPOSE TO SAY :    Their "In House Saftey people......." MY-BAD"

     I HAVE POSTED AN APPOLOGY

-------------------------
"ARE WE HAVING FUN YET?"

Modified 8 Apr 2008 10:23 AM
by poster.
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randal_s
Nova Scotia, Canada
Hi Dan

Thanks for answering my RHATORICAL question for any of our readers that are not familiar with the term or use of spit valve.

Posted 7 Apr 2008 11:03 AM Reply  Report this message
dan_m
Ontario, Canada
Is it just me?  Is it just in Ottawa?  Is it just in Canada?  Or is this a worldwide conspiracy on behalf of the governments to take such a lacksadaisial attitude towards safety in the workplace?  The crap that continually goes on, day after day, is sickening.  When are these public officials going to get off their duffs and enforce the laws, not only once there has been an incident, but as a preventitive measure?

And secondly, on-line training, CD Rom courses, and train the trainers (in-house training) should all be banned and outlawed.  The people training others are purchasing agents, supervisors, or anyone with an IQ over 40, who doesn't have the time, or inclination, to have the staff trained properly, or efffectively.  I have yet to meet an in-house trainer who knows what, and how to teach others.  And these idiotic computer based programs, which do not encompass, or address,  the facility in question, should all be burnt in hell.

My rant!

Posted 7 Apr 2008 11:26 AM Reply  Report this message
ZZJASEZZ
BUCKINGHAMSHIRE, United Kingdom

Sorry dont agree with all that im a in house trainer and i train to ITSSAR standards which is a registered organisation that deals with F.L.T training.Keeping to the standards you cover yourself and also cover the company.Any person that wants to forget what he/she has been taught at a later date to make things quicker or easier that is down to them please dont aim your crititism at the trainer unless you know the facts.I`m sure there are people that you have trained dan that at this very moment are breaking all the rules. I`m affraid we dont have a crystal ball we cant see into the future as long as i train by the book and all relevant training paper work is signed and theory and practicle tests have been signed Thats all i can look to.
As for "i wasnt shown how to do that" think he would say that would`nt he...

-------------------------
RTITB F.L.T/MHE INSTRUCTOR/MANUAL HANDLING INSTRUCTOR.

Posted 8 Apr 2008 03:43 AM Reply  Report this message
dan_m
Ontario, Canada
I'll I am saying is that I have yet to meet an in-house trainer that prepares and puts on a meaningful course.  Usually, they show a film and describe the controls, have them drive for a minute, and they are off to the races.  That has been my experience however you may be quite the opposite.

This is what I see and this is what I am told.

Posted 8 Apr 2008 05:46 AM Reply  Report this message
randal_s
Nova Scotia, Canada
I believe you can not tar all in-house trainers with the same brush. There are a many "professional Trainers"  that would fall into the same description that you have given in-house trainers. I personaly know several companies that I would stack thier in-house trainer up against any out-house trainer that you pick.
The wole basis of training boils down to the person that is picked starts with a deep commitment to safety, is given the tools to work with and has the backing of the organization.
It truly does not matter if you are an in-house trainer or an out-house trainer when the house realy does not care about safety both types of Trainers are destined to fail.

Posted 8 Apr 2008 09:08 AM Reply  Report this message
roadrat
North Carolina, United States

TO ALL "INHOUSE TRAINERS" THAT HAVE RESPONDED TO MY LAST POST

"PLEASE ACCEPT MY HUMBLEST APPOLOGIES,
THE STATEMENT I MADE CONCERNING IN HOUSE TRAINERS,
WAS SUPPOSED TO SAY "THEIR" INHOUSE" SAFTEY PEOPLE ..... MEANING THE TRAINERS AT THIS SPECIFIC FACILITY.

I IN NO WAY MEANT "ALL INHOUSE TRAINERS", I SHOULD HAVE DONE A BETTER JOB AT PREVIEWING MY POST BEFORE SUBMITTING IT.

AGAIN, MY APPOLOGIES TO ALL WHO WERE OFFENDED,

                   Sincerely,   roadrat





Modified 8 Apr 2008 10:26 AM
by poster.
Reply  Report this message
dan_m
Ontario, Canada
Agree with Randall s however, many of the trainers providing the TTT are incompetent themselves so how can they train others to train properly.  Remember, many companies' primary concern is the cost of the training, and not the qulaity of the program or trainer.  So, if the quality of the training to the supervisors is poor, then the domino affect works its way in and the staff end up getting a subpar program from their in-house trainer.

Posted 8 Apr 2008 10:25 AM Reply  Report this message
roadrat
North Carolina, United States

Response to Randall s:  If you noticed, a 1 minute "training" session solved the problem. He did not know that what he was doing was dangerous, but now he does.

It was not a matter of being lazy, actually he thought he was saving time by "Quickshooting" his tank so he could get trailers loaded. Had he known better or had been properly "Trained" he would have known, also he must be a wise person, because he thanked me for the info---An IDIOT would have told me to mind my own business!!

Proper Training and Education SAVES LIVES!!      BY THE WAY, dan m, I appreciate your passion for Saftey, I notice at times you take a bunch of heat for it, but don't stop.



-------------------------
"ARE WE HAVING FUN YET?"

Modified 8 Apr 2008 03:16 PM
by poster.
Reply  Report this message
ZZJASEZZ
BUCKINGHAMSHIRE, United Kingdom

Roadrat no offence taken everyone has their own point of view you say what you see same with dan.To be an in house trainer you still have to go on an Instuctors course that is registared for F.L.T training.The two main compannies for training F.L.T drivers in the U.K are R.T.I.T.B and I.T.S.S.A.R. So although i`m paid by my company when i am training i`m training on behalf of I.T.S.S.A.R

On my training course there where Instuctors that where going on there own i.e self employed they could hardly drive a truck themselves when im not training im driving so im allways keeping my hand in to the job that is the benifit of being a onsite instructor.

Good debate keep it going.....

-------------------------
RTITB F.L.T/MHE INSTRUCTOR/MANUAL HANDLING INSTRUCTOR.

Posted 9 Apr 2008 02:47 AM Reply  Report this message
dan_m
Ontario, Canada
ZZ,  

The problem here is that there is no requirement to be considered a forklift training instructor, school or company, at least here in Canada, and I presume the States.  Any pea brain can open up shop and start to train.  Their credentials are not studied, and believe you me, there are lots of idiots getting away with this.  So what we are saying, ZZ, is that there are individuals out there who call themselves trainers.  They then put on a TTT course which lasts about a day.  Yes, a day!  Now the students consider themselves trainers and go off and train people in their respective companies to be competent operators.  Here are the controls.  This is what they do.  Now you go try it....

Get my drift, now?

Modified 9 Apr 2008 03:30 AM
by poster.
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thomas_c
California, United States

OHSA does not accredit. They're a little like the IRS: they don't approve in advance, but they do audit. Check-out osha.gov, word search "powered industrial truckls" or CFR 1910.178. Section L has training and trainer requirements. They have added a lot of specific content with the 1999 Final Rule code revisions.

-------------------------
Invest in people first.

Posted 9 Apr 2008 04:22 AM Reply  Report this message
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